Posts by stirred but not shaken

74

7 Reasons Why Babylon the Great was Jerusalem

by Tiresias in

authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.

the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).

i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.

stirred but not shaken

Apog..Could be that's what Fisherman meant, or not. Maybe he'll clear it up. As I commented earlier, evidence just in scripture seems to indicate that Revelation was written prior to 70, maybe in the early 60's, because, for one, no Bible writer refers to the catostrophic event as having taken place. Rev. 1:1 "...to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place". So if he gave the Revelation to John of Patmos at an earlier time, those things would be happening shortly, soon, imminently, which I don't think equate to 2000 years future. J.S. Russell also discusses why the writing date of 96 or 98 has it's problems. Since most of end time religions depend on things like the GT and Armageddon as being future, this conclusion really turns things around and certainly challenges those who have set dates for those things happening in our time..or in my Dad's time or his Mom's time..whatever.

Regarding 666/616 equaling Nero, it is fascinating or at least intriguing as well. J.S. Russell comments on that in the book "Parousia" with a similar conclusion. That particular part isn't that important to me..it could very well be..but it sure is more reasonable than 6 to the 3rd power being short of 7 (perfection) that is found in Wt literature.

74

7 Reasons Why Babylon the Great was Jerusalem

by Tiresias in

authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.

the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).

i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.

stirred but not shaken

Fisherman..Are you stating that revelation was written after 70 and then support that by reading Rev. 1:1? Just not sure what you mean to say..

kaik..You appear to have done a fair amount of reading and research. I've appreciated some of your other posts. I defer to scholarship and evidence for I am but an upstart even at my age. I think the OP wanted to draw attention to who Babylon the Great is NOT according to Wt. theology. Those who come to this board, if they're like me, are looking for reassurance that they're making the right decision that they've been misled and want to pursue answers that replace flawed teachings. It's fascinating and exilerating to at least realize with some confidence that the decision to leave the org is based on some merit.

I have a couple of observations and questions that perhaps you and TD can address. At the risk of being a Bible thumper..I don't think that Jesus or the apostles were what we now call anti semetic. It appears they had to deal with some radical factions of Judaism and were often in fear of their lives because of it. Jesus made the comment to the Samaritan woman that the "truth originated with the Jews" and that he himself kept the law. Peter's letters appear to be addressed to the Jews in the diaspora. He likely was aware that there were many Jews throughout the land(s) and had been there for at least 700 years. His letters were to comfort and assure them. Jude seeems to have done the same. Could it be that the apostate representative of that faith, represented by Jerusalem and it's priesthood, was the target and not the Jews? It seems to parallel what happened to Jerusalem in Nebuchadnezzar's time. Some of the tribal lands were not affected by the destruction of Jerusalem i.e., tribe of Benjamin was alive and well. So you would appear to be correct that those in the Diaspora were mostly unaffected.

How do you see it and how might it help those lurking or wanting confirmation?

74

7 Reasons Why Babylon the Great was Jerusalem

by Tiresias in

authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.

the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).

i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.

stirred but not shaken

TD. I've read a lot more on this subject than most JWs, but a lot less than some on this board. I could never be accused of being very sholarly. The subject of who was/is Babylon the Great is intriguing, and as time permits, I will pursue the subject. Reading more on the subject from the likes of Eisenman or Wilson will be interesting and helpful for sure, but for the moment..learning that the WT interpretation of who she is and other related teachings/doctrines is the result of the wild imagination of a self appointed bible scholar. Which includes among other things the ridiculous interpretaion of the bowls and trumpets. This as opposed to what I would call a much better researched and rational conclusion. So as I mentioned earlier, J.S. Russell's work may need adjustments or refining, albeit by later scholars, but the responsible and reasonable reader should be able to conclude that the prophecy was not meant for a 20th (now 21st century) fulfillment. The tail chasing engaged by the present teachers of this org leave little doubt that we've been on the wrong road. I know I was. Anyway thanks for the tip.

I hope the OP and the other contributors continue, I find it interesting and satisfying.

74

7 Reasons Why Babylon the Great was Jerusalem

by Tiresias in

authors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.

the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).

i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.

stirred but not shaken

Thanks Tiresias for starting this topic. I read the "Parousia" by J.S. Russell and was at the same time conducting the Book Study when we last studied "Revelation Climax..." Talk about a conflict. Essentially the book was a jaw dropper for me. It took me places that one would never experience as a JW. I hope this thread continues for a while as I havn't really talked about it for quite some time. When one realizes that this book was written before C.T. Russell, and had he read it, the blunders of his prophetic understanding (especially re: the Revelation by John), might have been avoided. It makes a lot of sense, and will change how one reads and understands the Bible and what to expect in the future. The others who have commented seem to see it that way as well.

An interesting observation for me, was a comment that the "Insight" book and the "All Scripture.." book, both mention that the book of Jude was likely written in the 60's (if I recall), because the destruction of Jerusalem is not mentioned. Pity they didn't apply that to all the writings of John. No Bible book mentions it, and this event would never have been ignored by any Bible writers if the past recordings is of any value. I think this alone suggests an earlier writing of Revelation. This understanding dovetails with comments made by several of the apostles concerning struggles Christians were having with Jews. Using a cryptic expression for Jerusalem (Babylon) could likely keep them out of harms way. Like all good Bible commentators, if J.S. Russell were still alive, he likely would make some adjustments, especially with the research tools we have today. I kinda think partial preterism is viable.

1

How to Include an Attachment

by stirred but not shaken in

how do you attach something from a folder or other documents?.

.

stirred but not shaken

How do you attach something from a folder or other documents?

8

History of the church/Christianity, etc.

by Joe Grundy in

i have learned a great deal from some of the very erudite posters on this site (thank you).. for many years i've been interested in the history of the development of christianity, not only from its earliest days but through the reformation, etc., and through to the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries when denominations, sects, cults took off in all directions like exploding fireworks.. i was aware, in broad terms, of luther, calvin and the development of protestantism from which so many denominations and sects (including jws) arose.

i was vaguely aware of the schism (1,000 years ago) between the western (catholic) and eastern (orthodox) churches and was tangentially interested as to why it happened (if the 'east' was the home of christianity, how come the 'west' disagreed with it?).

i was quite interested to read, while living in cyprus, a greek orthodox english language bible which had a large section in the back about the schism.

stirred but not shaken

Oops!

Good suggestion. The period of time that was fascinating to me was the period from Malachi to the 1st century. Understanding what happened during that time helps understand that the audience of Jesus and the apostles as well, was not the audience of the previous prophets. The Maccadean period and the Herods brought the Jewish world into a sectarian pot luck. By the time Jesus started preaching, there had formed the Pharisees, Saducees, Essennes and a militant revolutionary group. The only group that seemed to survive the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 were the Pharisees. There's a couple of books written by F.F. Bruce on the period mentioned above and then the early Christian period. Both worth a read.

8

History of the church/Christianity, etc.

by Joe Grundy in

i have learned a great deal from some of the very erudite posters on this site (thank you).. for many years i've been interested in the history of the development of christianity, not only from its earliest days but through the reformation, etc., and through to the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries when denominations, sects, cults took off in all directions like exploding fireworks.. i was aware, in broad terms, of luther, calvin and the development of protestantism from which so many denominations and sects (including jws) arose.

i was vaguely aware of the schism (1,000 years ago) between the western (catholic) and eastern (orthodox) churches and was tangentially interested as to why it happened (if the 'east' was the home of christianity, how come the 'west' disagreed with it?).

i was quite interested to read, while living in cyprus, a greek orthodox english language bible which had a large section in the back about the schism.

stirred but not shaken

83

Blown away-- where to go from here

by All for show in

jw
friends

i stumbled upon this website a few weeks ago due to the jw.org ridiculousness, since then i haven't been able to pull myself away.

the thoughts, feelings, and concerns i have had the past few years aren't just mine.

it's global.

stirred but not shaken

You can expect that even the most loving and trusted friend or family member will shun you if you have been institutionally marked. They don't want to lose the loyalty identity and then be corrupted by Satan's wily ways. Remember the loyalty is to the interpretation of what Wt. thinks the bible teaches then enforces it through intimidation. It's done in other high control religious groups as well. Very revealing!

I say this after spending 60+ years at a very visible level and aquiring friends in many States and several countries. Our only crime was questioning and reverently seeking answers to transient, and obvious flawed teachings of fallible men (the last attempt to study the Revelation book was a hoot). NOT ALLOWED. You'll be guilty of causing or inciting division. You must "wait on Jehovah", even if it's been wrong for decades, even a century. While knowing the real truth is a relief, starting over is tough at this stage of our lives. Having a clear(er) conscience helps. We didn't come to this site until we had already concluded that the Wt. Society wasn't interested in the truth..preservation but not truth. Many well thought out, detailed and documented "studies" have been sent to the writing department detailing problems with long time doctrines that have no support in academia, get shelved and lost, only after the sender gets warned and counseled and even censored. You'll likely experience some of this, but you're making your move at a good time in your life. You've got a lot of time ahead of you.

31

WT for this Sunday...You are My Witnesses

by Legacy in

wt 7/15/2014....page 27...question # 17...what will we consider in the next article...paragraph 17...but how can we be jehovah witnesses and at the same time be witnesses of jesus....well well well...i think they really got the point...all through the greek scriptures, that's what jesus has been saying...we are to witness about him....in the hebrews scriptures was about jehovah god, most of the world got that.

now jehovah, put another spoke in the wheel his son...jesus...that's who paul has been talking about all along...that he was witness of jesus, paul knew who god was.

i think the society monitors sites like these & others & found out....they may have been, uh...wrong....wonder how are they going to spin this one off....i won't read the next article just yet... comments anyone ..... legacy.

stirred but not shaken

Thanks Wanna, checking history where I've contributed...worked. Great!

31

WT for this Sunday...You are My Witnesses

by Legacy in

wt 7/15/2014....page 27...question # 17...what will we consider in the next article...paragraph 17...but how can we be jehovah witnesses and at the same time be witnesses of jesus....well well well...i think they really got the point...all through the greek scriptures, that's what jesus has been saying...we are to witness about him....in the hebrews scriptures was about jehovah god, most of the world got that.

now jehovah, put another spoke in the wheel his son...jesus...that's who paul has been talking about all along...that he was witness of jesus, paul knew who god was.

i think the society monitors sites like these & others & found out....they may have been, uh...wrong....wonder how are they going to spin this one off....i won't read the next article just yet... comments anyone ..... legacy.

stirred but not shaken

Sorry if this is off topic, but instead of copy and paste certain threads (or parts of), how does one "mark" the thread? This particular thread has some points I'd like to have on record. Thanks